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Conference Strengths – A Different Slant

IdaGriz01

Well-known member
In view of the (largely inconclusive) pissing match about how the Big Sky compares in overall strength to the Missouri Valley, I got to wondering what the numbers show. By extension, we might as well include the Colonial. No one disagrees that NDSU is the dominant power in FCS, with JMU not far behind. Because of NDSU’s big number, Sagarin does rank the MVFC at the top, but the difference is not all that much for the MVFC, BSC, and CAA: 52.8, 50.6, 50.2. (FYI: After that the number drops to 44.5, so there’s quite a large separation from the rest of the FCS.) Also, if you take out the NDSU and JMU “outliners,” the three conference numbers differ by less than 0.8.

But in my mind, the real question concerned the strength of the conferences from top to bottom. That took a bit more work, and I was limited by what I knew how to present here on the forum. So I turned a table into a kind of chart. The columns are (obviously) values for the teams in each conference. I then entered the Sagarin team numbers in descending order, matching up the values as best I could going across. I inserted partly-empty rows whenever there were big differences.

I find the results very, very interesting. The Big Sky has a block of three basically equal teams right at the top, just above a looser block for the MVFC. Then there’s another step down to the CAA. All three conferences have at least one obvious bottom dweller.

Each conference has a distinct pattern, once you set aside the outliers at the top. Except for its cellar-dweller, the CAA more or less clusters in the middle. The MVFC teams spread out more, from their second tier down to their two cellar-dwellers. To me, the BSC is the most interesting: With a couple of exceptions in the middle, the Sky has a block of very good teams at the top and another block of crappy teams near the bottom. In a way, that explains how the unbalanced schedule can cause such big swings in how difficult a given team has it for a season.

Code:
BSC	MVFC	CAA
	75.9	73.0
		
63.7		
63.7		
63.7		
	62.2	
59.6	60.2	
56.9	56.6	
		55.5
		55.1
53.8	54.6	
	52.0	52.3 
		52.1
		51.0
		50.2
49.3	49.4	
		47.1
	46.6	46.0
45.7		
44.5		44.1
43.9		
40.8		
40.6		
		39.6
37.0		
	35.4	
	35.3	
 
 
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
 
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
 
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.

Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
 
IdaGriz01 said:
In view of the (largely inconclusive) pissing match about how the Big Sky compares in overall strength to the Missouri Valley, I got to wondering what the numbers show. By extension, we might as well include the Colonial. No one disagrees that NDSU is the dominant power in FCS, with JMU not far behind. Because of NDSU’s big number, Sagarin does rank the MVFC at the top, but the difference is not all that much for the MVFC, BSC, and CAA: 52.8, 50.6, 50.2. (FYI: After that the number drops to 44.5, so there’s quite a large separation from the rest of the FCS.) Also, if you take out the NDSU and JMU “outliners,” the three conference numbers differ by less than 0.8.

But in my mind, the real question concerned the strength of the conferences from top to bottom. That took a bit more work, and I was limited by what I knew how to present here on the forum. So I turned a table into a kind of chart. The columns are (obviously) values for the teams in each conference. I then entered the Sagarin team numbers in descending order, matching up the values as best I could going across. I inserted partly-empty rows whenever there were big differences.

I find the results very, very interesting. The Big Sky has a block of three basically equal teams right at the top, just above a looser block for the MVFC. Then there’s another step down to the CAA. All three conferences have at least one obvious bottom dweller.

Each conference has a distinct pattern, once you set aside the outliers at the top. Except for its cellar-dweller, the CAA more or less clusters in the middle. The MVFC teams spread out more, from their second tier down to their two cellar-dwellers. To me, the BSC is the most interesting: With a couple of exceptions in the middle, the Sky has a block of very good teams at the top and another block of crappy teams near the bottom. In a way, that explains how the unbalanced schedule can cause such big swings in how difficult a given team has it for a season.

Code:
BSC	MVFC	CAA
	75.9	73.0
		
63.7		
63.7		
63.7		
	62.2	
59.6	60.2	
56.9	56.6	
		55.5
		55.1
53.8	54.6	
	52.0	52.3 
		52.1
		51.0
		50.2
49.3	49.4	
		47.1
	46.6	46.0
45.7		
44.5		44.1
43.9		
40.8		
40.6		
		39.6
37.0		
	35.4	
	35.3	
 

That is interesting and thank you for pulling those numbers together. I am patiently waiting for an obnoxious 2011 NDSU alumni to post something wildly inaccurate and annoying. 3,2,1
 
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
To reinforce your point: The "outsider" before Western Kentucky was Georgia Southern (SoCon) back in 2000 and 1999. Of course, they too moved up. The OVC had its moments but never had a perennial contender. But the loss of both App State and Ga Southern gutted the Southern Conference.
 
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
To reinforce your point: The "outsider" before Western Kentucky was Georgia Southern (SoCon) back in 2000 and 1999. Of course, they too moved up. The OVC had its moments but never had a perennial contender. But the loss of both App State and Ga Southern gutted the Southern Conference.
Wasn't Western Kentucky a member of the Gateway Conference, the precursor to the MVFC?
 
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.

Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:

Isn’t this the exact argument used by those against a move to the FBS in order to justify how terrible playing in the FBS would be? The fcs is no different, of course, except in my mind, those in the fcs are just playing for a far less significant second place.
 
EverettGriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.

Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:

Isn’t this the exact argument used by those against a move to the FBS in order to justify how terrible playing in the FBS would be? The fcs is no different, of course, except in my mind, those in the fcs are just playing for a far less significant second place.
I don't think it's a far less significant second place to the guys playing. That's why there are divisions in football. Do you think the kids playing for the Class B or C championship are playing for second or third place?
 
grizband said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are, outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
To reinforce your point: The "outsider" before Western Kentucky was Georgia Southern (SoCon) back in 2000 and 1999. Of course, they too moved up. The OVC had its moments but never had a perennial contender. But the loss of both App State and Ga Southern gutted the Southern Conference.
Wasn't Western Kentucky a member of the Gateway Conference, the precursor to the MVFC?
Got me on that one.

They were part of the OVC for over a half century (1948-2000), so I kinda drifted along with that. However, they had moved to the Gateway when they won the NC in 2002. Near as I can tell (been a lot of movement over the years), the last OVC team to win a Nattie was Eastern Kentucky, way back in 1982.
 
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.

Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
And in no way supports moving to a 24 team playoff like they did. I doubt there's ever been a NC that wasn't in the top 12.
 
In the last 20 years...

MVFC- 12 National championship game appearances (5 different programs). 8 national championship teams

CAA- 8 National championship game appearances(5 different programs). 5 national championship teams

Big Sky- 7 National championship game appearances (2 different programs). 2 national championship teams
 
2011BisonAlumni said:
In the last 20 years...

MVFC- 12 National championship game appearances. 8 national championship teams

CAA- 7 National championship game appearances. 5 national championship teams

Big Sky- 7 National championship game appearances. 2 national championship teams

Merry Christmas Eve on eGriz, Butters.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
2011BisonAlumni said:
In the last 20 years...

MVFC- 12 National championship game appearances. 8 national championship teams

CAA- 7 National championship game appearances. 5 national championship teams

Big Sky- 7 National championship game appearances. 2 national championship teams

Merry Christmas Eve on eGriz, Butters.

You too. Tell the BOW hello for me.
 
2011BisonAlumni said:
In the last 20 years...

MVFC- 12 National championship game appearances (5 different programs). 8 national championship teams

CAA- 8 National championship game appearances(5 different programs). 5 national championship teams

Big Sky- 7 National championship game appearances (2 different programs). 2 national championship teams

The proper measurement period is 25 years.
 
SubGriz said:
EverettGriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.

Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:

Isn’t this the exact argument used by those against a move to the FBS in order to justify how terrible playing in the FBS would be? The fcs is no different, of course, except in my mind, those in the fcs are just playing for a far less significant second place.
I don't think it's a far less significant second place to the guys playing. That's why there are divisions in football. Do you think the kids playing for the Class B or C championship are playing for second or third place?

//
App State, Nevada, Boise St., Georgia Southern, Liberty, W. Kentucky....all moved up......who has moved in or down to replace these programs? FCS has not gotten a lot weaker the past 20 years.
 
kemajic said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
AZGrizFan said:
When was the last time the FCS championship included a team from a conference OTHER than MVFC, CAA or BSC? That’s all you need to know.
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are, outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
And in no way supports moving to a 24 team playoff like they did. I doubt there's ever been a NC that wasn't in the top 12.
Actually there have been two (barely), both coming in at #13 according to the lists posted on Wikipedia. The first was Youngstown State in 1991, under Jim Tressel. I had forgotten that the Penguins were then an Independent. They had a rocky start but ended with a four game winning streak, starting with a road win at Georgia Southern (the 1990 National Champion). Two of the other final wins were against James Madison and Towson. All that was enough to get an at-large bid, which they took all the way to a NC.

The other #13 was Western Kentucky in 2002. They were co-champions of the Gateway and received an at-large bid. (Western Illinois had the tie-breaker and auto-bid.)

Obviously both of these cases were borderline, since one lousy point in the polls can make the difference between being #13 or #12. These minor exceptions in no way invalidate the main point ... that half the teams in a 24-bid field are there just for window-dressing.
 
Mousegriz said:
SubGriz said:
EverettGriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:

Isn’t this the exact argument used by those against a move to the FBS in order to justify how terrible playing in the FBS would be? The fcs is no different, of course, except in my mind, those in the fcs are just playing for a far less significant second place.
I don't think it's a far less significant second place to the guys playing. That's why there are divisions in football. Do you think the kids playing for the Class B or C championship are playing for second or third place?

//
App State, Nevada, Boise St., Georgia Southern, Liberty, W. Kentucky....all moved up......who has moved in or down to replace these programs? FCS has not gotten a lot weaker the past 20 years.
Also Marshall, Troy St. and Coastal Carolina. NDSU, SDSU moved up from DII. And UNC lol....
 
IdaGriz01 said:
kemajic said:
AZGrizFan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
Well, the issue addressed was the overall (top-to-bottom) strength of the various conferences.

Still, you address a good point: The last "outsider" was Appalachian State (SoCon) in 2007. That was App State's third championship in a row, and then they moved up, of course. Before that is was Western Kentucky (OVC) in 2002. The Hilltoppers have also since moved up.
Yes, and when App State was ruling the world there were 4 very good, deep conferences. Now 75% of FCS is playing for participation trophies. And actually, about 99% are,outside of NDSU and JMU. :lol:
And in no way supports moving to a 24 team playoff like they did. I doubt there's ever been a NC that wasn't in the top 12.
Actually there have been two (barely), both coming in at #13 according to the lists posted on Wikipedia. The first was Youngstown State in 1991, under Jim Tressel. I had forgotten that the Penguins were then an Independent. They had a rocky start but ended with a four game winning streak, starting with a road win at Georgia Southern (the 1990 National Champion). Two of the other final wins were against James Madison and Towson. All that was enough to get an at-large bid, which they took all the way to a NC.

The other #13 was Western Kentucky in 2002. They were co-champions of the Gateway and received an at-large bid. (Western Illinois had the tie-breaker and auto-bid.)

Obviously both of these cases were borderline, since one lousy point in the polls can make the difference between being #13 or #12. These minor exceptions in no way invalidate that main point ... that half the teams in a 24bid field are there just for window-dressing.
That's good research. So in the last 15+ years no......
 
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