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Transgender Debate

horribilisfan8184 said:
HelenaHandBasket said:
So you don't believe that males transitioning to females are at a disadvantage if forced to compete against other males? Also, how should we handle any females transitioning to males? Are you good with them competing against females? I am sure a year of testosterone could do wonders for performance.

So you believe there should be no consequence to peoples choices? For men, they are choosing to change the look of their breasts and crotches, and choosing to enhance that look by hormone suppression therapy, which has a side effect of diminishing natural athletic abilities (but only slightly so they can can crush women, but struggle against other men).

For women, we already ban all male athletes who dope with testosterone, which would apply to them as well (a really stupid example to throw out but throw away..)

Sometimes life's choices are a bitch. Until the day science reaches a point where doctors can turn the y chromosome to an x, your position, based on feelings, will never be correct. The upside is if they ever figure how switch y to an x, they could switch back when the patient finally realizes, as so many do, the sex change was not the answer to their problems. And maybe the transgender suicide rate, as noted in a study published in the American Academy of Pediatrics, will come down.

"More than half of transgender male teens who participated in the survey reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, while 29.9 percent of transgender female teens said they attempted suicide. Among non-binary youth, 41.8 percent of respondents stated that they had attempted suicide at some point in their lives."

I know all these downsides because a very dear friend's son was going through identifying as a girl near the end of grade school, and I helped her research the challenges her son would face if he chose to continue on that path. He read everything we gave him and made an informed choice to continue, aware of the downside consequences others before him had suffered.

The reason life ain't fair is because everybody's definition of fairness comes from their own unique internal perspective, (unless, of course, they are woke, where group think teaches you can never be woke enough or fair enough.)

Of course it seems that you missed my point. More and more people are transitioning, and instead of passing legislation that makes things more difficult, how about working on ways to make it easier. I don't disagree that males transitioning to female shouldn't compete against natural females, but to force them into a disadvantageous situation to fix another disadvantageous situation isn't the best path. And then to have different rules if it is a male or female transitioning on top of it. How about taking steps so all these athletes can find a way to compete and possibly have some positive results instead of passing a very partisan bill in hopes that they just go away. And don't even try to tell me that staunch evangelicals want to deal with transgender people in anyway.
 
So we are to this then,


males compete against males,
transitioning males compete against males,
females compete against females,
transitioning females compete against males?
 
How about people raise their kids better and don"t allow them to be transgender, whatever that is? Just kidding.

My daughter plays rugby and has no problem playing with transgenders (or anyone else). She is hetero.
 
The whole purpose of HB112 was to keep female sports female. Transgendered can pursue their own life otherwise. They are free to
do as they please. Go find a life, get pregnant(!!!), or otherwise live long and prosper, or go play in heavy traffic, whatever.
 
grizindabox said:
So we are to this then,


males compete against males,
transitioning males compete against males,
females compete against females,
transitioning females compete against males?
Hey, hormone therapy is powerful stuff that changes your body in a fundamental way, so obviously trans boys should compete with cis boys.

Also, hormone therapy doesn't really do anything, and trans girls will never be "real girls", so they should compete with cis boys.

It might seem like I simply do not want trans people to exist in sports (or in general).

Something something spirit of competition I'm not transphobic, I swear.
 
uofmman1122 said:
grizindabox said:
So we are to this then,


males compete against males,
transitioning males compete against males,
females compete against females,
transitioning females compete against males?
Hey, hormone therapy is powerful stuff that changes your body in a fundamental way, so obviously trans boys should compete with cis boys.

Also, hormone therapy doesn't really do anything, and trans girls will never be "real girls", so they should compete with cis boys.

It might seem like I simply do not want trans people to exist in sports (or in general).

Something something spirit of competition I'm not transphobic, I swear.

Credit where due, you’ve been making this (good) point from the jump.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
uofmman1122 said:
Hey, hormone therapy is powerful stuff that changes your body in a fundamental way, so obviously trans boys should compete with cis boys.

Also, hormone therapy doesn't really do anything, and trans girls will never be "real girls", so they should compete with cis boys.

It might seem like I simply do not want trans people to exist in sports (or in general).

Something something spirit of competition I'm not transphobic, I swear.

Credit where due, you’ve been making this (good) point from the jump.

Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?
 
horribilisfan8184 said:
CDAGRIZ said:
Credit where due, you’ve been making this (good) point from the jump.

Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?

I thought the NCAA required proof of hormone therapy to compete with one's gender identity (edit: when transitioning). Is that just for trans females and not trans males or something? If so, would that be discrimination based on both biological sex and gender identity at the same time? Interesting stuff.
 
"...just a fullback..."
Now, that is hitting below the belt. Hmm, maybe a kick between the legs will confirm whether he/she is a male or female. :yikes:

Any guy who has ever gotten racked can attest to the veracity of this method.
 
horribilisfan8184 said:
CDAGRIZ said:
Credit where due, you’ve been making this (good) point from the jump.

Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?
See, now we're getting somewhere.

It's okay to be ignorant of trans issues (I know I was for a long time), which is probably why you're conflating performance enhancing drugs with gender/sex hormone therapies. If you don't know the difference, let me know, and I can send some info your way.

You might also be under the false impression that a single trans person has ever transitioned strictly to somehow do better at sports, and I'm sure if you knew any trans people you'd realize how ridiculous the idea that years of torment, discrimination, and sometimes outright hostility from your own government would be somehow worth a few years of "sports glory" is.

Also, I'm not saying you need to move on from a child's understanding of biology and gender, but if you're ever interested, I can send some links your way, as well. :thumb:

Or, ya know, if you just think trans people are gross and weird, you could at least be honest about it.
 
uofmman1122 said:
horribilisfan8184 said:
Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?
See, now we're getting somewhere.

It's okay to be ignorant of trans issues (I know I was for a long time), which is probably why you're conflating performance enhancing drugs with gender/sex hormone therapies. If you don't know the difference, let me know, and I can send some info your way.

You might also be under the false impression that a single trans person has ever transitioned strictly to somehow do better at sports, and I'm sure if you knew any trans people you'd realize how ridiculous the idea that years of torment, discrimination, and sometimes outright hostility from your own government would be somehow worth a few years of "sports glory" is.

Also, I'm not saying you need to move on from a child's understanding of biology and gender, but if you're ever interested, I can send some links your way, as well. :thumb:

Or, ya know, if you just think trans people are gross and weird, you could at least be honest about it.

Great post 1122. No one would go thru that for a second place ribbon at a Class C cross country meet.
 
uofmman1122 said:
horribilisfan8184 said:
Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?
See, now we're getting somewhere.

It's okay to be ignorant of trans issues (I know I was for a long time), which is probably why you're conflating performance enhancing drugs with gender/sex hormone therapies. If you don't know the difference, let me know, and I can send some info your way.

You might also be under the false impression that a single trans person has ever transitioned strictly to somehow do better at sports, and I'm sure if you knew any trans people you'd realize how ridiculous the idea that years of torment, discrimination, and sometimes outright hostility from your own government would be somehow worth a few years of "sports glory" is.

Also, I'm not saying you need to move on from a child's understanding of biology and gender, but if you're ever interested, I can send some links your way, as well. :thumb:

Or, ya know, if you just think trans people are gross and weird, you could at least be honest about it.

So, you're a gross/weird trans AND use performance enhancing drugs?
 
tourist said:
uofmman1122 said:
See, now we're getting somewhere.

It's okay to be ignorant of trans issues (I know I was for a long time), which is probably why you're conflating performance enhancing drugs with gender/sex hormone therapies. If you don't know the difference, let me know, and I can send some info your way.

You might also be under the false impression that a single trans person has ever transitioned strictly to somehow do better at sports, and I'm sure if you knew any trans people you'd realize how ridiculous the idea that years of torment, discrimination, and sometimes outright hostility from your own government would be somehow worth a few years of "sports glory" is.

Also, I'm not saying you need to move on from a child's understanding of biology and gender, but if you're ever interested, I can send some links your way, as well. :thumb:

Or, ya know, if you just think trans people are gross and weird, you could at least be honest about it.

So, you're a gross/weird trans AND use performance enhancing drugs?
I'm not trans, but I am currently on a cycle of BOFA.
 
Clay Travis:

https://rumble.com/vfobmn-clay-travis-adds-much-needed-common-sense-to-the-transgender-sports-debate.html
 
NCAA is already reversing their stance on anti TG laws, or at least ignoring them for now.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/ncaa-considers-holding-tournaments-states-trans-athlete-restrictions-n1266672


The NCAA announced a preliminary list of 20 schools being considered to host the Division I Softball Championship, and three of them — Alabama, Arkansas and Tennessee — are in states that have recently passed laws banning transgender girls and women from competing on women's sports teams.

"When determining where championships are held, NCAA policy directs that only locations where hosts can commit to providing an environment that is safe, healthy and free of discrimination should be selected," the April 12 statement said. "We will continue to closely monitor these situations to determine whether NCAA championships can be conducted in ways that are welcoming and respectful of all participants."

Many advocates took the NCAA's statement to mean that it wouldn't consider states that had passed legislation targeting trans people to host tournaments.

But the organization's recent list of potential hosts for an early round of the softball tournament appears to call into question whether the NCAA will be holding states accountable.

Karen Weaver, a former college field hockey coach and athletic administrator now on the faculty at Penn, called the most recent NCAA statement as “wishy washy as you can get.”
Weaver told The Associated Press that the NCAA's statement was "carefully worded," and that's likely due in part to legislation in Congress known as the name, image, likeness, or NIL bill, which would allow athletes to make money on the use of their name, image or likeness.
She said it's a "tenuous time to be taking any kind of stance that might be viewed as political," because the NCAA is trying to "craft their future in the Congress and Senate with the NIL legislation."
“They’re trying to not tick off any potential folks who might vote for something that benefits the NCAA the most,” Weaver told the AP.

The NCAA is about to announce the baseball sites soon too.

Jeff Altier, the NCAA Division I Baseball Committee chairman and the athletic director at Stetson University in Florida, told the AP last month that his committee had not received a directive to exclude any school from consideration for hosting a regional.

Gail Dent, spokeswoman for the NCAA Board of Governors, did not respond to questions about the NCAA’s willingness to pull events out of states with bans.

Currently six states have passed anti TG laws and 28 states, including some of those six, have other anti TG bills in the works. If not by this dec, by next fall for sure, states that don’t at least exclude TD’ers from their desired sex’s sport, will be in the minority.
 
Isn't hormone therapy putting something in the body to change it.
Last time I checked steroids are put in the body to change the body.

Both should be illegal in any competition, because its impossible to know the exact outcome of use.
IE, how do you qualify the change in either to make sure the competition is fair?

So why do we outlaw steroids and find hormone therapy legal?
 
uofmman1122 said:
horribilisfan8184 said:
Silly straw man argument.

Should we follow the science? Ok, biology is a science.
Biologically, boys are boys, and boys who trans to girls are boys.
Girls are girls, and girls who trans to boys are girls.

Competing with one's biological sex is what the science calls for (you are what your dna says you are).

Let's throw in hormone supplements. It doesn't matter what sex you were born or trans to, if you are taking hormones you should not be competing against any other athletes banned from taking hormones. The NCAA absolutely prohibits athletes from competing caught taking hormone supplements

Now if UFOmann can figure out a woke way of setting up sports between different groups of hormone takers, which doesn't offend trans or non-trans athletes who are disqualified from sports due to taking hormones, he should be with the NCAA on its rules committee. Maybe Chairperson.

Seems there is also a claim we should look aside if the hormone therapy doesn't really all that much enhance performance. Can UFOmann get an "Amen" from the Bison doping deniers who think not all stimulants, if really, really weak, should be banned, especially if the taker is ignorant or just a fullback?
See, now we're getting somewhere.

It's okay to be ignorant of trans issues (I know I was for a long time), which is probably why you're conflating performance enhancing drugs with gender/sex hormone therapies. If you don't know the difference, let me know, and I can send some info your way.

You might also be under the false impression that a single trans person has ever transitioned strictly to somehow do better at sports, and I'm sure if you knew any trans people you'd realize how ridiculous the idea that years of torment, discrimination, and sometimes outright hostility from your own government would be somehow worth a few years of "sports glory" is.

Also, I'm not saying you need to move on from a child's understanding of biology and gender, but if you're ever interested, I can send some links your way, as well. :thumb:

Or, ya know, if you just think trans people are gross and weird, you could at least be honest about it.

So you don't want the gig. Could have said that in alot fewer words.

Check the WHO archives and see when transgender was reclassified as no longer a mental illness. The Kinsey 50's? M &J 60s and 70's? Maybe enlightened 80's or naughty 90's? Ok really by millennial enlightenment of 2000's? Woke 2010's? How about 2019 with woke power leading the way. Boy that's science for you. History lesson over. This isn't complicated unless you really need to feel good about yourself through espousing sympathy over science. Just because an injustice against happens infrequently doesn't mean its not an injustice. Your blinders are rather blinding. You can love and embrace trans individuals and still know its not fair for bio men to compete with bio women in non handicapped sports. Some of us learned in the 70s to reject the type of domain assumptions you are casting about.

Dont be shy about checking the NCAA banned substance list of hormones, which includes any chemically related substances not listed.
 
Paytonlives said:
Isn't hormone therapy putting something in the body to change it.
Last time I checked steroids are put in the body to change the body.

Both should be illegal in any competition, because its impossible to know the exact outcome of use.
IE, how do you qualify the change in either to make sure the competition is fair?

So why do we outlaw steroids and find hormone therapy legal?

horribilisfan8184 said:
So you don't want the gig. Could have said that in alot fewer words.

Check the WHO archives and see when transgender was reclassified as no longer a mental illness. The Kinsey 50's? M &J 60s and 70's? Maybe enlightened 80's or naughty 90's? Ok really by millennial enlightenment of 2000's? Woke 2010's? How about 2019 with woke power leading the way. Boy that's science for you. History lesson over. This isn't complicated unless you really need to feel good about yourself through espousing sympathy over science. Just because an injustice against happens infrequently doesn't mean its not an injustice. Your blinders are rather blinding. You can love and embrace trans individuals and still know its not fair for bio men to compete with bio women in non handicapped sports. Some of us learned in the 70s to reject the type of domain assumptions you are casting about.

Dont be shy about checking the NCAA banned substance list of hormones, which includes any chemically related substances not listed.
Looks like we're sticking with a child's understanding of science, biology and gender.

That's cool guys, no shame in that, I guess.

Offer still stands if you ever want to move on from that. Feel free to DM me. :thumb:
 
uofmman1122 said:
Paytonlives said:
Isn't hormone therapy putting something in the body to change it.
Last time I checked steroids are put in the body to change the body.

Both should be illegal in any competition, because its impossible to know the exact outcome of use.
IE, how do you qualify the change in either to make sure the competition is fair?

So why do we outlaw steroids and find hormone therapy legal?

horribilisfan8184 said:
So you don't want the gig. Could have said that in alot fewer words.

Check the WHO archives and see when transgender was reclassified as no longer a mental illness. The Kinsey 50's? M &J 60s and 70's? Maybe enlightened 80's or naughty 90's? Ok really by millennial enlightenment of 2000's? Woke 2010's? How about 2019 with woke power leading the way. Boy that's science for you. History lesson over. This isn't complicated unless you really need to feel good about yourself through espousing sympathy over science. Just because an injustice against happens infrequently doesn't mean its not an injustice. Your blinders are rather blinding. You can love and embrace trans individuals and still know its not fair for bio men to compete with bio women in non handicapped sports. Some of us learned in the 70s to reject the type of domain assumptions you are casting about.

Dont be shy about checking the NCAA banned substance list of hormones, which includes any chemically related substances not listed.
Looks like we're sticking with a child's understanding of science, biology and gender.

That's cool guys, no shame in that, I guess.

Offer still stands if you ever want to move on from that. Feel free to DM me. :thumb:

In most cases it's not the child (Less than 14 years old) that's pushing this issue.

My job puts me on the frontline of this issue and trust me most kids are confused and the parents step in and say hey "maybe your just in the wrong sex"
Instead of looking at the mental issues involved they make it worse by pushing a thought process on a child not capable of making a lifetime decision.
 
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