Jeff Welsch: "University of Montana still reeling... "

I would also add that we are just starting to come out of it for our football program. The firing of our HC and AD really set us back a long time, but we are finally starting to turn the corner and get back to dominance. If anyone disputes this stuff, take off the rose glasses. However I would agree that it wasn't necessary for Walsh to take a pot shot at UM.

What did the writer mean by this:

"The University of Montana is still reeling from Jon Krakauer’s book and a “60 Minutes Sports” expose, both directly related to football."

The book was released in April 2015.

The 60 Minutes thing was Nov. 2014.

Maxim said:

I would also add that we are just starting to come out of it for our football program. The firing of our HC and AD really set us back a long time, but we are finally starting to turn the corner and get back to dominance. If anyone disputes this stuff, take off the rose glasses. However I would agree that it wasn't necessary for Walsh to take a pot shot at UM.

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I don't necessarily disagree, but note that Pflu's first season was not good, his second was great, the firings occurred, Delaney's first season was not good (when JJ couldn't play), and then Delaney's last two the Griz were ranked nos. 8 and 12 at the of the season.

While the two firings were horrible and huge, the hiring of Stitt was also a huge mistake.

I love the references to It's a Wonderful Life", but how many ways can Mr. WelschewalshewelchhXXX be spelled? :shock:

PlayerRep said:

What did the writer mean by this:

"The University of Montana is still reeling from Jon Krakauer’s book and a “60 Minutes Sports” expose, both directly related to football."

The book was released in April 2015.

The 60 Minutes thing was Nov. 2014.

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I suspect he might be referring to the enrollment drop.

Ursa Major said:

bgbigdog said:

Mary had a dark side... just sayin.

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:clap: :clap: :clap: That's my personal POTY right there. You even got a lol from the Russian.

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очень мило с твоей стороны, мой друг, спасибо.

I guess I didn’t really have a problem with what he said regarding UM. It’s all true. We’ve been on an enrollment decline since the book, 60 mins, etc.

HookedonGriz said:

I guess I didn’t really have a problem with what he said regarding UM. It’s all true. We’ve been on an enrollment decline since the book, 60 mins, etc.

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Maybe to be fair, every future article written about Bozeman and the land grant institution of higher learning with flat roofs, should reference murder, drug rings and rape of a 15 year old by a basketball player. No sense letting the past die....

HookedonGriz said:

I guess I didn’t really have a problem with what he said regarding UM. It’s all true. We’ve been on an enrollment decline since the book, 60 mins, etc.

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I guess it wasn't the fact that it's all true, but the fact that it added no value to the article. Kind of like writing an article about how it will be sunny in Bozeman, and including something regarding how it will be cloudy in Missoula because you think that will make it sunnier in Bozeman.

grizfnz said:

HookedonGriz said:

I guess I didn’t really have a problem with what he said regarding UM. It’s all true. We’ve been on an enrollment decline since the book, 60 mins, etc.

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Maybe to be fair, every future article written about Bozeman and the land grant institution of higher learning with flat roofs, should reference murder, drug rings and rape of a 15 year old by a basketball player. No sense letting the past die....

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To fairly complete the analogy, every article written about UM should include those things about MSU, because they are true.

The enrollment started dropping years before Krakauer's book came out. And before the article. While those things might have contributed to UM's problems and reputation, they didn't create them. So, why is this joker of a writer referring to them?

PlayerRep said:

The enrollment started dropping years before Krakauer's book came out. And before the article. While those things might have contributed to UM's problems and reputation, they didn't create them. So, why is this joker of a writer referring to them?

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Because he is a butt hurt Belgrade resident ag state grad who got his feelings hurt by students from the flagship liberal arts college his whole life. Funny thing is if he was a fraction of a writer as this reporter from the Chronicle he might still be the Actual bobcat beat writer instead of the wannabe he is:

https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/montana_state_university/best-of-times-for-msu-worst-of-times-for-um/article_3d22a4ea-9105-5385-a72e-9177899aa432.html

The fact that he is Lee’s sports editor probably explains almost everything about today’s journalism, and why The Missoulian no longer has a beat writer for the UM basketball team.

CDAGRIZ said:

grizfnz said:

HookedonGriz said:

I guess I didn’t really have a problem with what he said regarding UM. It’s all true. We’ve been on an enrollment decline since the book, 60 mins, etc.

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Maybe to be fair, every future article written about Bozeman and the land grant institution of higher learning with flat roofs, should reference murder, drug rings and rape of a 15 year old by a basketball player. No sense letting the past die....

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To fairly complete the analogy, every article written about UM should include those things about MSU, because they are true.

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Don’t forget about meth dealing coaches and football stars breaking into the mayors basement.

UM enrollment started dropping shortly after Bobby left. Coincidence? I think not! Like it or not, a strong athletic program (football, basketball, whatever) and a coach with some personality translates to higher enrollment.

While I have some thoughts, I don't pretend to know why UM enrollment has dropped and keeps dropping, nor have I ever talked to a senior UM administrator to hear their assessment.

Using below linked interactive Kaimin article on enrollment, it looks like enrollment started to drop in 2012. It seems to drop about 425 - 900 per year and be steady during the period in the article, which is not current. Note that there are various ways to measure enrollment. This one is FTE. Undergrads, grad students, part-time, Missoula College, all affect the numbers and percentages. Note sure what school year the years mean, i.e. start or end of year. I assume end of school year.

2011 - 15,669
2012 - 14,946
2013 - 14,525
2014 - 13,952
2015 - 13,044
2016 - 12,419

Hauck departed at the end of 2009.

Engstrom started in Oct. 2010.

Sexual assault got big press starting in Dec. 2011 and into 2012, when the JJ thing started. Missoulian, Florio, rumors printed as fact, Barz reports, DOJ, ncaa investigated started in early 2012 but not announced until June.

Pflu/O'Day fired in March 2012. Huge national press from then on. Krakauer book later.

JJ charged about August 2012, and acquitted in about March 2013.

Delaney doesn't make playoffs without JJ, and is ranked nos. 12 in 2014, and 8 in 2013.

Stitt is coach from 2015-17.

Bodnar starts in Jan. 2018.

Hauck returns in late 2016, and has first season in 2017.

Enrollment keeps declining, but seems to have slowed. MSU's enrollment has been climbing for the whole period. In this period, MSU enrollment went up about 3,000, to 16,440.

This is what the Sept. 2016 Kaimin article says:

"So why are Montana students choosing MSU over UM?

When asked that question, students typically reported personal reasons unrelated to UM’s enrollment decline or highly publicized rape scandals. This suggests UM’s loss of incoming freshmen doesn’t seem to be due to a tainted reputation.

Rather, it seems UM is struggling to recruit, admit and serve prospective students."

http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/why-montana-students-flock-to-msu-while-um-s-enrollment/article_2aa74de6-8663-11e6-b157-6bcf591c82e0.html

This linked article has more specific timeline of the sexual assault and related stuff:

http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/the-end-of-engstrom-how-um-s-president-fell-from/article_d48313ac-baae-11e6-8bcf-77cfb385b265.html

Well, Jeff Welsch, there are so many fallacies in your article, it's hard to tell where to start: post hoc ergo propter hoc.

UM's enrollment dropped for a number of reasons in my opinion.

1. For some reason, UM's recruitment under Engstrom all but disappeared. I had family members who were in high school during this time. I cannot remember any of them receiving materials from UM. They all got MANY mailings, calls, emails, etc. from MSU.

2. UM had some legitimate issues on campus. Yes, MSU had previous issues, but it is ridiculous to deny that those problems didn't hurt UM significantly.

3. I really hate to say this, but MSU has a much greater choice of very attractive programs in fields where the employment market is very, very strong. Engineering, medical sciences, architecture, business, etc. UM has some strong fields also, and some overlap, but liberal arts aren't nearly as "in demand" as the STEM based programs. Many of UM's traditional strengths have been minimized. Let's face it. There just aren't as many jobs in forestry, journalism, wildlife biology, classical literature, etc. UM needs to face this problem directly, and take its head out of its ass. Otherwise, nothing is going to change. If my kids were graduating today, I would have a hard time pushing them towards UM rather than MSU, unless they wanted to go into a program specifically offered at UM, and not at MSU, such as PT, Pharm, etc. I would actually push them towards a trade, but that is a different story.

4. The enrollment in both schools is cyclical. When I graduated from high school, most of my classmates were going to MSU. It was the cool place to go. (Apparently why I chose UM). But that changed. I think it will change again, but UM has its work cut out for it.

All that said, I am pleased with the efforts that Bodner is making. I hope he is able to see it through. Tough decisions need to be made at UM. There are some programs that simply are not sustainable. Those need to be replaced by programs that will offer the graduate something other than student loan debt.

May sound like heresy but faced last year with the need to do a tax write down I looked at funding an in-state student success scholarship. Having tracked both the cutting back and outright elimination of programs at UM I made the final decision to fund a scholarship in the firmly established College of Nursing at MSU. Fund raisers at UM know I'll be doing likewise there in the future - but only after solid evidence that academic stability and growth have actually returned to the Missoula campus.The MSU scholarship is for in-state nursing students with the hope that they will return to serve the residents of their home community. I suspect I am not the first nor the last UM grad faced with this kind of decision...

grizpack said:

3. I really hate to say this, but MSU has a much greater choice of very attractive programs in fields where the employment market is very, very strong. Engineering, medical sciences, architecture, business, etc. UM has some strong fields also, and some overlap, but liberal arts aren't nearly as "in demand" as the STEM based programs. Many of UM's traditional strengths have been minimized. Let's face it. There just aren't as many jobs in forestry, journalism, wildlife biology, classical literature, etc. UM needs to face this problem directly, and take its head out of its ass. Otherwise, nothing is going to change. If my kids were graduating today, I would have a hard time pushing them towards UM rather than MSU, unless they wanted to go into a program specifically offered at UM, and not at MSU, such as PT, Pharm, etc. I would actually push them towards a trade, but that is a different story.

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You specifically mention msu’s business program. However, it is rated by major publications as inferior to UM’s. Montana’s business school is very good.

Silvertip said:

May sound like heresy but faced last year with the need to do a tax write down I looked at funding an in-state student success scholarship. Having tracked both the cutting back and outright elimination of programs at UM I made the final decision to fund a scholarship in the firmly established College of Nursing at MSU. Fund raisers at UM know I'll be doing likewise there in the future - but only after solid evidence that academic stability and growth have actually returned to the Missoula campus.The MSU scholarship is for in-state nursing students with the hope that they will return to serve the residents of their home community. I suspect I am not the first nor the last UM grad faced with this kind of decision...

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Yeah, because nothing will help contribute to the return of academic stability and growth like donating to another school.....SMFH